The case of Shanti Devi

0:01 Hello everybody and welcome back to Unthinkable, a true crime podcast. Thank you for joining me. My name is Lisa. I hope you are all well. Now, this case today is a little bit different. As I said last time, I wanted to research something a little bit lighter. After my last two episodes, they involve child death and they were both very sad, and I couldn't sort of bring myself to research another one like that again. So in my day job, I work I work with dogs. So I'm a dog groomer and I'm a dog walker.

0:32 And one of my friends, Becky, I walk her dog Bonnie, and I went around there to pick Bonnie up the other day, and we started talking about the Enfield poltergeist case that I did. And then we got onto the subject of reincarnation. And in particular, when young children recall past life memories. So today I'm going to talk about a case, an unexplained case of reincarnation. Now, worldwide, children can be found who report that they have memories of a previous life. More than 2,500 cases have been studied at the University of Virginia in the United States.

1:11 In many cases, revelations of the children that have been verified and have corresponded with a particular individual who's already dead. And some of the children even have birthmarks or birth defects corresponding with the wounds on the body of the apparent previous personality. Some people recognize people or places from a previous life, and they can describe the interior of a house in a different country that they've never visited or been inside. Now a very well-known case is that of Shantidevi, and this is thought to be one of the best cases of children's past life memories ever to be recorded.

1:53 And it even caught the attention of Mahatma Gandhi. So Shanti. So Shantidevi, she was born in 1926 on the 11th of December in Delhi, India. As a young girl, Shanti didn't really speak at all. Her parents actually thought she was mute. Then by the age of four, she did begin to speak, which was a huge relief. However, Shanti, who hadn't spoken, was now speaking in four sentences. And she starts talking about how she used to live in Mutra with her husband, and that her real name isn't Shanti Devi, it's actually Lugdi Devi.

2:38 And what's interesting here is Mutra is actually a nickname for the town, and it's used by locals. The town is really called Matura. So Mutra is what the locals call their town. How would Shanti know this? She tells her parents that she is married to a man, she has a child, and her husband owns a cloth shop. Now, to begin with, although a little baffled, they don't really take too much notice, they just sort of put it down to child imagination and storytelling. But Shanti would talk repeatedly about her past life.

3:17 And one day when her mum was dressing her, Shanti started to talk about the clothes that she used to wear and the dresses she had, and that she could tell her clothes now weren't real silk because her husband owned a cloth shop with real silk. And she mentioned her husband's shop was located in front of a temple. And this is a four-year-old girl who's only just started talking. Now there's many times when her family are sat eating together and she would start talking about what she used to eat, saying she used to eat lots of different kinds of sweets.

3:51 Now, so far she's saying things that could be is a bit odd, but we can easily say it's a bit of overimagination. But as she gets older, Shanti's story continues, and she starts saying she wants to go back to her life, and she's persistently asking her parents to take her to Matora. She wants to see her husband and she wants to see her son. She tells her parents a detailed account of how she'd given birth to a baby boy, but she had died ten days later due to complications, and she describes a complicated surgical procedure that she had to have.

4:27 She said that they lived in a yellow house and that there was a well in the garden. Now Shanti's parents take her to see the family physician, and he concludes that there's nothing wrong with her medically, but he's amazed by the language she's using. She's speaking like a grown woman and not a child. So Shanti, she starts school at Ramjah High School in Delhi, and she starts to tell her teachers and school friends about her life in Matura. She tells them about how she had a child and then she died after complications, and her school friends they just see this as storytelling, and a lot of them are kind of making fun of her.

5:10 But the teacher, the teacher is a distant relative as well, and he is called Bubba Disrinchard, and he thinks that Shanti is remembering a past life. Now in India, it's customary for wives not to mention their um husband's name in public, and Shanti, she hadn't, she hadn't said his name. She'd known this and she'd never told anybody her husband's name. But her teacher says to her that if she whispers it to him, then he will take her to Matura. So Shanti agrees and she whispers Sidrunath Cubay, and that's the name of her husband.

5:53 So her teacher says he'll make some inquiries and then he'll arrange a trip. Now the teacher he tracks down Sidrnath and he writes him a letter explaining that his student Shanti Devi, now aged eight, is claiming to be Lugdi Devi. He wrote that Shanti had told him that she had died 10 days after childbirth, and she also described her husband as having a wart on his cheek and that he wears glasses, and she described him as fair. So a few days later, Sidonath writes back and he confirms it. He says that he was married to Lundi Devi and that she had died 10 days after childbirth.

6:39 He says that he does have a wart on his cheek and that he wears glasses. Now, Sidonath he says that he has a cousin who actually lives in Delhi and he could get him to come and visit Shanti. So this is agreed, and so Kajmal, that's Sidanath's cousin, he comes to meet Shanti and he is so impressed that he travels to Matura to persuade his cousin to come to Delhi. Now, Sidanath comes to Delhi on the 12th of November 1935 and he brings his son Navni with him. So Navni is Sidonath's son from his first wife, Lugdi.

7:22 Now, Sidanath, he's still a bit sceptical, he's not really sure. So he comes up with a plan to tell Shanti that he's actually the brother of Sidonath to see if this is a hoax. So when he arrives, he introduces himself as Ron, the older brother. But Shanti says, No, you're not my husband's brother, you're my husband. And then she turns to her mother and points to the wart on his cheek and says, See, didn't I tell you he had a wart on his cheek? And everyone is baffled. This is looking more and more like Shanti is actually Lukdi.

8:00 So Shanti's mother starts to prepare a meal for her guests and she asks Shanti what meal should she prepare? And Shanti says, Stuffed potato parathas and pumpkin squash. And these are Sidanaf's favourite dishes. Sidanaf was staying with the family overnight, but before he went to bed he asked if he could talk to Shanti alone. He later said that he was fully convinced that Shanti was his wife Lugdi because there were so many things that she talked about that only Lugdi would have known, and he talked about her mannerisms and the way she talked and the way she moved.

8:38 Was Lugdi? So that's like how would Shanti know how Lugdi moved around in her mannerisms? You know? Now Shanti, she was so overwhelmed by seeing Navni, the son from her previous life, she cried when she hugged him and she actually gave him all of her toys. Now on the 15th of November, Sidanath and Navni are due to leave Delhi to go back to Matura, and Shanti is so upset and she begs her parents to let her go with him, but her parents refuse. Now Shanti's story is spreading all over India. A real reincarnation, and people are excited and fascinated.

9:24 And Shanti's story even grabs the attention of Mahatma Gandhi. Now Mahatma Gandhi managed to convince Shanti's parents to let Shanti travel to Matura with a group of national leaders and media to study her case. So there's a group of 15 that accompany accompany her. On the 24th of November 1935, Shanti is eight, the group travel by train to Mathura, and they report that Shanti became so overjoyed as the train pulled up on the platform. Now remember, Shanti has never been to this part of India in this life, and this is in 1935.

10:06 There is no internet, you can't just do a quick Google search. Like you can't just find out this information, and being an eight-year-old child, she's not gonna be able to find anything out on her own, is she? The group took Shanti by a Tonga. So a Tonga is a light two-wheeled horse-drawn carriage, and members of the public use them to get around over there. So the group, they all travel together and they tell the driver to follow Shanti's directions to the house. Um, and they are said not to talk to her, not to give her sort of any clues.

10:39 So she's given the directions. And on the way, she's pointing out landmarks that she recognized and she's naming them, and she points out things that have changed since she was last there. And these are all correct, but the landmarks she's naming, she's naming them correctly, and the things that have changed they were confirmed to be correct. She'd got them right. So now word is spreading and crowds are gathering, and Shanti she spots an elderly man in the crowd, and she asked the driver to stop and she gets down from the carriage, and she goes over to the elderly man and she bowed, and she said that it was her father-in-law, it was Cedoneth's father, and it was.

11:24 Now she directed all of her group to the correct house, and the house was white, though it wasn't yellow, like she said. But then the new owners of the house said that they had painted it, and they confirmed that when they first moved there, it was yellow, and she knew the layout of the house, so she knew where like the toilet was, she knew where the bedrooms were, and it was just like she'd lived in it before. And she pointed out an area where she once hid money, and Sidonev said that after she died, he did find money there.

11:55 Now Shanti, she runs into the garden and she's looking around and she's looking for the well, but she can't find one, so she's looking around the garden and she's saying, I'm sure there was a well here, but I can't find one, I can't find one. But then Sidhinev follows her out and he moves like a big slab of concrete to one side, like he just moves it out the way, and he reveals the well. So the well is there. Now she's then taken to Lugdi's parents' home, and she recognises her mother and father, and she sits on her mother's lap, and Shanti, she bursts into tears, and the group that travelled with her, they had to forcibly separate her from her mother from her past life when it was time to go.

12:43 So the group that travelled to Matora with Shanti, they commissioned a report published in 1936, and given what they'd witnessed, they concluded that Shanti was indeed the reincarnation of Lugdi Devi. So what do we think? So I don't have a faith, so I don't necessarily believe strongly in anything, but I have quite an open mind. But Shanti Devi's case, it's one of the best cases ever recorded, and it still remains heavily debated. Is it real or is the whole thing a hoax? I mean, she's four years old and she's accurately named her past life husband, and she described details that she couldn't have known.

13:30 She knew her way to what was claimed to be her old house, even though she'd never been to Matura before. And the group that went with her said that she identified the landmarks correctly and told them things that have changed. Like, how do you explain that? And even her apparent past life husband, he was so convinced that he that she was his wife. She knew things that only the two of them knew. Now, critics argue that maybe Shanti had overheard conversations and discussions about Siddharth and Lunt Lugdi, or that there was communication between Shanti's family and Siddharth prior to Shanti speak-in.

14:11 Like had they given her information about Siddharth. There is an argument because the group that accompanied Shanti to Mathura were Hindus, and Hindus believe strongly in reincarnation. So did they see what they wanted to see? And did they influence her in any way, like guide her intentionally or unintentionally? You know, sometimes when you want something to be true, your imagination can run away with you a bit, can't it? So did Shanti just lie? She was a little kid, and kids lie, and especially when they're made to feel special, and the things she got right, that was just coincidence maybe?

14:50 And did she get things wrong on the trip? But we aren't being told that part of the story. Has this story been fabricated over the years, like it was almost a hundred years ago? So have little bits been added to it to make it more believable? You just don't know, do you? Now, Shanty's story may be one of the biggest, but it's definitely not alone. There are thousands of reports of children with past life memories, and some of them are hoaxes, of course, but there are others that you just can't explain.

15:23 Now, there is James Lindinger, I don't know how they used to say his name, it's L-E-R no L-E-I-N-I-N-G-E-R. Now he was just two when he started having nightmares, and he was having nightmares about World War II fighter planes, and when he started speaking, he was giving detailed accounts of World War II fighter planes, and he was talking about a pilot called James M. Hudson, and he correctly knew how James had died, and this was at two years old. Like, how would he know that? And I think, like, if you say, Oh, well, his parents could have told him, when you're two years old, you're not going to remember names of people and how they died and stuff, are you?

16:08 You're in your own little world. So whether you believe in it or you don't, or you're a bit like me and you don't really know, but you have a bit of an open mind. Skeptics do struggle to explain these cases, especially where the details are verified and there's no obvious source for the information. Like it just can't be explained. And some people they'll be like, No, it's not true, I don't believe in it, but they don't need an explanation, they it's just not what they believe in. And that's fine, isn't it?

16:37 We can all choose to believe in what we want to. Life is full of mysteries and we will never really understand them. Now, throughout Shanti's adult life, she lived quietly, she never married, and this is because she saw herself of the wid as a widow of her past life husband, and she died at the age of 61 in India on the 27th of December 1987. So, do you believe that this is proof of reincarnation, or do you believe it's a hoax? Either way, it's very thought-provoking, isn't it? And I find these things they're so fascinating because I don't know, and like I'd like to believe there's something, but I just don't know what.

17:20 And because we don't have any actual real proof of anything 100%, that's what makes it fascinating, isn't it? Because you can look into these things and it's just boggled your mind, but yeah, I I don't know, I find it really interesting, and I I don't know, it's really hard to explain a lot of what happened, and I just you know the argument that Shanti may have overheard her parents talking about CDN and she made up the story from that, that it's just to get everything right, it's I I don't know.

17:53 I find it's very strange, but I don't know, I don't know what I think. So thank you everyone for listening. Do let me know what you think of this episode. Um, I have an Instagram page now, so it's at Unthinkable TrueCrime. So if you'd like to come over there and join me and we can discuss the cases, um, if you'd like to leave me a review, that would be greatly appreciated. So this was quite a short episode today, um, but it was but much needed. I did need to have a little bit of a break and do something a bit a bit nicer.

18:26 I will be back next time with a true crime episode. Um, so again, thank you all for joining me, and I like to end as always by saying in a world where you could be anything, be kind. Take care.